O'Murchu and I live in different historical,social, intellectual and religious worlds. I can' t go through his dark tunnel,no matter how bright he paints the picture at the far end. I take another route. I decided, then, to look for sentences i like: p. 30.- "Attributions related to the unconditional love of God tend to rise from a deep resonance within ourselves where we intuitively know that something akin to sheer goodness does exist in our world." ; p.37 "Humans are blessed with an innate sense of what is right and wrong, of what is authentic and false." ; p.47 "The pain of letting go, the ability to befriend diminishment, the wisdom to die to that which is no longer useful are all inherent dimensions of our paradoxical creation and foundational to the "progress" of evolution itself." I also liked the sentence on p. 39 - "The plot is thick with contradictions, riddled with projections, and infiltrated with a plethora of unexamined assumptions." But O'Murchu would not necessarily agree with all the intellectual arguments to which I might apply it.
G said: Thank you for such a constructive approach to the book. I agree that during the bumper car ride with Father O'Murchu there are inspirational notions and phrases like the ones you have identified. I'm glad you called them to our attention. I would also add that these notions are common to many religious/spiritual traditions just as truly now as in the past. They are not novel nor are they lost. They get renewed and reinterpreted from one generation to the next, as they must, and there is no need to be in despair at this evolutionary process or to feel impatience. O'Murchu is incorrect in suggesting that [only] "Today, humans are beginning to address the inherited dysfunctionality of religion" (page 35). There are always waves of renewal and revival, witness the development of Zoroasterism, Christianity and Sikkism, as examples.
bjp said I forgot to identify myself i that first blog...apologies. Although my identity was probably no secret. I agree that what O'Murchu seems to forget is that our religious development, although influenced and affected by our historical location, is neither defined nor determined by it. And this is a shame,because when he does step outside his historical rants, he has some lovely things to say..cf above
Of all the things that caught my attention in chapters 3 & 4, I think the thing that stayed with me the most is O'Murchu's critique of agriculture which is so ill-informed that it took my breath away. Did the hunter-gatherer way of life really "provide for everybody" where it takes 2-3 hours of walking and gathering to collect 100 calories of wild berries? Or where the violence involved in the pursuit and killing of animals is so profound that it evokes compensatory rites and rituals around the world? And is agriculture especially "an aggressive, manipulative, divisive, and violent relationship towards the use of land"? Methinks Father O'Murchu is conflating private property with cultivation. True, the two often co-exist, now as in the past, but these judgments overlook the many and complex facets of this human activity. I recommend Michael Pollan's " The Botany of Desire" or "Cooked"; Barbara Kingsolver's "Animal, Vegetable, Miracle"; and any of Wendel Berry's works for those interested in alternative views of the relationship between humans and the rest of the natural world. G
bjp said I agree with you. What also boggled my mind was the double use of the fallacy of 'misplaced concreteness: applied once to something that began so many thousands of years ago and is supposed to continue to oppress us - the agricultural revolution - and then applied to something as recent as 50 years ago and is supposed to be the source over-coming that oppression - the 'revolution' of the 1960's. Talk about time being relative......
From TRW There was a good question on page 36 -why people "collude" to maintain abusive leadership. O'Murchu wants us to take responsibility for ourselves and not rely on top-down permission. I see his point. Members of a church should not have to hear from the professor before they do something. I agree with that and I am willing to take that responsibility. So what next? I am anxious to get on with things and learn what he means by "adult faith".
EWL said Within chapter 3, O’Murchu seems to be going through a process of religion deconstruction. For me it reaches a zenith on page 35 in the paragraph starting “Various reformers have attempted to revitalize their religious systems, with limited success.” The paragraph lists ways in which a religion attempts “to become more relevant.” All of the ways listed are strikingly familiar with respect to the churches of today. Yet he discounts these attempts within the control structure of the church. I am left feeling a void. Per page 37 “It evokes and invites a whole new different sense of what it means to be a religious believer and what it means to be a participant in a credible faith community.”
In contrast to life in a modern city, on page 47 O’Murchu makes the statements “Vulnerability is a graced gift.” and talks of ”The pain of letting go, the ability to befriend diminishment, the wisdom to die to that which is no longer useful”. As Darwin spoke of physical evolution, is O’Murchu talking about evolution of the spirit?
bjp said I think I might feel the same void as you, having experienced many of those attempts to make religion more relevant, ....had it not been for Vatican II which did evoke in me and my Roman Catholic friends 'a whole new different sense of what it means to be a religious believer' . And it was a change 'from the top down' - even though the 'top' has been trying to disavow it ever since. I am a little surprised O'M didn't mention it - perhaps he feels it was another failed attempt. I disagree. I think the consequences of Vatican II are being evidenced today in many of the grass roots movements, especially within the RC church such as the ones in Latin America. So a 'top down' may in its own good time, and without official sanction lead to genuine grass roots change.
O'Murchu and I live in different historical,social, intellectual and religious worlds. I can' t go through his dark tunnel,no matter how bright he paints the picture at the far end. I take another route.
ReplyDeleteI decided, then, to look for sentences i like: p. 30.- "Attributions related to the unconditional love of God tend to rise from a deep resonance within ourselves where we intuitively know that something akin to sheer goodness does exist in our world." ; p.37 "Humans are blessed with an innate sense of what is right and wrong, of what is authentic and false." ; p.47 "The pain of letting go, the ability to befriend diminishment, the wisdom to die to that which is no longer useful are all inherent dimensions of our paradoxical creation and foundational to the "progress" of evolution itself."
I also liked the sentence on p. 39 - "The plot is thick with contradictions, riddled with projections, and infiltrated with a plethora of unexamined assumptions." But O'Murchu would not necessarily agree with all the intellectual arguments to which I might apply it.
G said:
DeleteThank you for such a constructive approach to the book. I agree that during the bumper car ride with Father O'Murchu there are inspirational notions and phrases like the ones you have identified. I'm glad you called them to our attention. I would also add that these notions are common to many religious/spiritual traditions just as truly now as in the past. They are not novel nor are they lost. They get renewed and reinterpreted from one generation to the next, as they must, and there is no need to be in despair at this evolutionary process or to feel impatience. O'Murchu is incorrect in suggesting that [only] "Today, humans are beginning to address the inherited dysfunctionality of religion" (page 35). There are always waves of renewal and revival, witness the development of Zoroasterism, Christianity and Sikkism, as examples.
G
bjp said
DeleteI forgot to identify myself i that first blog...apologies. Although my identity was probably no secret. I agree that what O'Murchu seems to forget is that our religious development, although influenced and affected by our historical location, is neither defined nor determined by it. And this is a shame,because when he does step outside his historical rants, he has some lovely things to say..cf above
G also said:
ReplyDeleteOf all the things that caught my attention in chapters 3 & 4, I think the thing that stayed with me the most is O'Murchu's critique of agriculture which is so ill-informed that it took my breath away. Did the hunter-gatherer way of life really "provide for everybody" where it takes 2-3 hours of walking and gathering to collect 100 calories of wild berries? Or where the violence involved in the pursuit and killing of animals is so profound that it evokes compensatory rites and rituals around the world? And is agriculture especially "an aggressive, manipulative, divisive, and violent relationship towards the use of land"? Methinks Father O'Murchu is conflating private property with cultivation. True, the two often co-exist, now as in the past, but these judgments overlook the many and complex facets of this human activity. I recommend Michael Pollan's " The Botany of Desire" or "Cooked"; Barbara Kingsolver's "Animal, Vegetable, Miracle"; and any of Wendel Berry's works for those interested in alternative views of the relationship between humans and the rest of the natural world.
G
bjp said
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. What also boggled my mind was the double use of the fallacy of 'misplaced concreteness: applied once to something that began so many thousands of years ago and is supposed to continue to oppress us - the agricultural revolution - and then applied to something as recent as 50 years ago and is supposed to be the source over-coming that oppression - the 'revolution' of the 1960's. Talk about time being relative......
From TRW
ReplyDeleteThere was a good question on page 36 -why people "collude" to maintain abusive leadership. O'Murchu wants us to take responsibility for ourselves and not rely on top-down permission. I see his point. Members of a church should not have to hear from the professor before they do something. I agree with that and I am willing to take that responsibility. So what next? I am anxious to get on with things and learn what he means by "adult faith".
EWL said
ReplyDeleteWithin chapter 3, O’Murchu seems to be going through a process of religion deconstruction. For me it reaches a zenith on page 35 in the paragraph starting “Various reformers have attempted to revitalize their religious systems, with limited success.” The paragraph lists ways in which a religion attempts “to become more relevant.” All of the ways listed are strikingly familiar with respect to the churches of today. Yet he discounts these attempts within the control structure of the church. I am left feeling a void. Per page 37 “It evokes and invites a whole new different sense of what it means to be a religious believer and what it means to be a participant in a credible faith community.”
In contrast to life in a modern city, on page 47 O’Murchu makes the statements “Vulnerability is a graced gift.” and talks of ”The pain of letting go, the ability to befriend diminishment, the wisdom to die to that which is no longer useful”. As Darwin spoke of physical evolution, is O’Murchu talking about evolution of the spirit?
bjp said
DeleteI think I might feel the same void as you, having experienced many of those attempts to make religion more relevant, ....had it not been for Vatican II which did evoke in me and my Roman Catholic friends 'a whole new different sense of what it means to be a religious believer' . And it was a change 'from the top down' - even though the 'top' has been trying to disavow it ever since. I am a little surprised O'M didn't mention it - perhaps he feels it was another failed attempt. I disagree. I think the consequences of Vatican II are being evidenced today in many of the grass roots movements, especially within the RC church such as the ones in Latin America. So a 'top down' may in its own good time, and without official sanction lead to genuine grass roots change.